1.Kurt Andersen: Like many architects, David is a hog for the limelight, but is sufficiently reticent — or at least pretends to be —
库尔特安德森：跟很多建筑师一样，大卫很想成为关注的焦点， 但是他又太沉默–至少是假装这样吧–
2.that he asked me to question him rather than speaking.
以至他要求我向他提问而不是自己讲述。
3.In fact, what we’re going to talk about, I think, is in fact a subject that is probably better served by a conversation than an address.
实际上，我们今天要讨论的这个话题， 在我看来通过谈话的方式 比演讲的方式讲述也许更好。
4.And I guess we have a bit of news clip to precede.
我们先来看一段新闻短片。
5.Dan Rather: Since the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center, many people have flocked to downtown New York to see, and pay respects, at what amounts to the 16-acre burial ground.
丹拉瑟: 从911世贸中心被袭击之后， 很多人都涌进纽约市区 那个16英亩的墓地来凭吊死者。
6.Now, as CBS’s Jim Axelrod reports, they’re putting the finishing touches on a new way for people to visit and view the scene.
现在，正如哥伦比亚广播公司的记者吉姆艾克斯罗德报道的，那些工人正在为一条新的通道做最后的装修。 这条新通道是专门供人参观现场的。
7.Jim Axelrod: Forget the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty — there’s a new place in New York where the crowds are thickest — Ground Zero.
吉姆艾克斯罗德： 除了帝国大厦和自由女神像之外， 在纽约又有了个新地方 它是现在人群最拥挤的地方——世贸废墟中心。
8.Tourist: I’ve taken my step-daughter here from Indianapolis.
游客： 我把我的继女从印第安纳波利斯带到这里了。
9.This was — out of all the tourist sites in New York City — this was her number-one pick.
在纽约市众多的旅游景点中， 这是她的首选。
10.JA: Thousands now line up on lower Broadway.
吉姆：现在成千上万的人正在下百脑汇街排队。
11.Tourist: I’ve been wanting to come down here since this happened.
游客： 自那事故以来，我一直想来这里看看。
12.JA: Even on the coldest winter days.
吉姆： 即使在最寒冷的冬天。
13.To honor and remember.
为了悼念和铭记。
14.Tourist: It’s reality, it’s us. It happened here.
游客： 它是真实发生的，就发生在我们身上，就发生在这里。
15.This is ours.
这是我们共同的苦难。
16.JA: So many, in fact, that seeing has become a bit of a problem.
吉姆： 事实上，人太多了，以至来这里凭吊已经 存在一些小问题。
17.Tourist: But I think that people are very frustrated that they’re not able to get closer to see what’s going on.
游客： 我想人们都很沮丧， 因为他们不能靠得更近看看到底是怎样的情况。
18.JA: But that is about to change.
吉姆： 但是这个将会得到改变。
19.In record time, a team of architects and construction workers designed and built a viewing platform to ease the frustration — and bring people closer.
以创纪录的速度， 一支由建筑师和建筑工人组成的队伍 设计并建造了一个观景台来缓解这种沮丧– 可以让人们走的更近了。
20.Man: They’ll get an incredible panorama.
某男子： 人们将会看到一个难以置信的场景。
21.And understand, I think more completely, the sheer totality of the destruction of the place.
我想人们可以更加深刻的感受到， 世贸中心倒塌后的整体面貌。
22.JA: If you think about it, Ground Zero is unlike most any other tourist site in America.
吉姆： 如果你稍微想想，你会发现世贸废墟中心并不像 美国其他绝大多数的旅游景点。
23.Unlike the Grand Canyon or the Washington Monument, people come here to see what’s no longer there.
不像大峡谷和华盛顿山， 人们来到这里只是为了来看已经消失的东西。
24.David Rockwell: The first experience people will have here, when they see this, is not as a construction site, but as this incredibly moving burial ground.
大卫洛克威尔：人们看到这个的时候，第一个感受会是， 这个不像是个建筑工地， 而是一个难以置信的移动墓地。
25.JA: The walls are bare by design, so people can fill them with their own memorials the way they already have along the current perimeter.
吉姆： 那些墙被设计成光秃秃的。这样人们可以在上面写上 他们自己的悼词，就像他们已经在 周围写的那样。
26.Tourist: From our hearts, it affected us just as much.
游客： 这些悼词深深触动了我们的心扉。
27.JA: The ramps are made of simple material — the kind of plywood you see at construction sites — which is really the whole point.
吉姆： 那些斜坡是用简单的材料搭建而成的– 就是你在建筑工地可以看到的那种夹板– 这个就是真正的重点。
28.In the face of America’s worst destruction, people are building again.
在面对美国所遭受的最严重的破坏的同时， 人们又开始重建。
29.Jim Axelrod, CBS News, New York.
吉姆·阿克吉姆艾克斯罗德，哥伦比亚广播公司，在纽约报道。
30.KA: This is not an obvious subject to be in the sensuality segment, but certainly, David, you are known as — I know, a phrase you hate —
库尔特： 这个观景台并不是一个明显注重感官享受的建筑， 但是大卫，众所周知–我知道你讨厌这个词–
31.an entertainment architect.
你是一个娱乐场所建筑师。
32.Your work is highly sensual, even hedonistic.
你的作品都是很注重感官享受， 甚至是追求享乐主义的。
33.DR: I like that word.
大卫： 我喜欢这个词。
34.KA: OK. It’s about pleasure — casinos and hotels and restaurants.
库尔特： 好吧。 你的作品都是关于享受的–像赌场，酒店和餐厅。
35.How did the shock that all of us — and especially all of us in New York — felt on the 11th of September transmute into your desire to do this thing?
对于我们–尤其是我们纽约人 911所带来的震惊 是怎么促使你改变从而渴望去做这样一件事情的呢？
36.DR: Well, the truth of the matter is, post-September 11th, I felt myself in the role originally — first of all as someone who lives in Tribeca
大卫： 其实真实的原因是这样的。 911之后， 我去感受我自己原本真实的角色– 首先我住在特里贝卡，
37.and whose neighborhood was devastated, and as someone who works less than a mile from there — that I was in the role of forcing 100 people who work with me,
我的街坊邻居都被毁坏了， 而且我还在离世贸中心不到一英里的地方上班– 在我的公司里，我曾经要求100个人和我一起工作，
38.in my firm, to continue to have the same level of enthusiasm about creating the places we had been creating.
一起怀着同样的热情 去创造我们一直以来创造的那些建筑。
39.In fact, we’re finishing a book which is called “Pleasure,”
事实上，我们将要完成一本可以称之为“享乐”的书，
40.which is about sensual pleasure in spaces.
内容是关于空间的感官享受。
41.But I’ve got to tell you — it became impossible to do that.
但是我想告诉你–这本书变得不可能完成。
42.We were really paralyzed.
我们几乎都瘫痪了。
43.And I found myself the Friday after September 11th — two days afterwards — literally unable to motivate anyone and to do anything.
就在911后的礼拜五– 也就是事情发生两天之后– 我发现自己基本上不能激励任何人去做任何事了。
44.We gave the office a few days off.
我们只好给员工放了几天假。
45.And in discussing this with other architects, we had seen people saying in the press that they should rebuild the towers as they were —
再跟其他的一些建筑师讨论这个问题的时候， 我们发现人们在媒体上说 那些塔楼应该按原来的样子重建起来–
46.they should rebuild them 50 stories taller.
甚至要比原来还要高50层。
47.And I thought it was astonishing to speculate, as if this were a competition, on something that was such a fresh wound.
在我看来，真是令人吃惊的想法， 你可以想象这就像一场竞赛， 就在我们刚刚受伤的伤口上竞赛。
48.And I had a series of discussions — first with Rick Scofidio and Liz Diller, who collaborated with us on this, and several other people —
对于这个我有过一系列的讨论– 首先和里克斯科菲迪奥和利兹迪勒，他们和我合作建造这个项目， 还有一些其他人–
49.and really felt like we had to find relevance in doing something.
我真的觉得我们必须找到共同点来一起做点什么。
50.And that as people who create places, the ultimate way to help wasn’t to pontificate or to make up scenarios, but to help right now.
对于建筑师来说，最终施与帮助的方式 不是武断的发表意见或者虚构一些方案， 而是立刻采取实质性的行动。
51.So we tried to come up with a way, as a group, to have a kind of design SWAT team.
所以我们尝试采用一种方式， 像一个整体，组成一支类似特警一样的设计团队。
52.And that was the mission that we came up with.
这个就是我们提出来的任务。
53.KA: Were you conscious of suddenly — as a designer whose work is all about fulfilling wants — suddenly fulfilling needs?
库尔特： 你是突然意识到– 作为一个一直去满足人们欲望的设计师– 转而去满足人们的需要吗？
54.DR: Well, what I was aware of was, there was this overwhelming need to act now.
大卫： 坦白讲，我所知道的是， 有种马上采取行动的迫切需求。
55.And we were asked to participate in a few projects before this.
在这之前，我们就被邀请参与一些项目。
56.There was a school, PS 234, that had been evacuated down at Ground Zero.
有个原本在世贸废墟中心的叫PS 234 的学校被疏散了。
57.They moved to an abandoned school.
他们搬迁到一个废弃的学校。
58.We took about 20 or 30 architects and designers and artists, and over four days — it was like this urban barn-raising — to renovate it, and everyone wanted to help.
我们找到2，30个建筑师，设计者和艺术家， 花了超过4天的时间–就像这个城市的房屋建造一样– 去翻新那个学校。每个人都想帮忙。
59.It was just extraordinary.
确实非同一般。
60.Tom Otterness contributed, Maira Kalman contributed and it became this cathartic experience for us.
汤姆奥特尼斯做出了贡献，迈拉卡尔曼也做出了贡献。 对于我们来说，这个成了一次很痛快的经历。
61.KA: And that was done, effectively, three weeks — by October eighth or something?
库尔特：那个项目最后很有效率的完成了，只花了3个礼拜的时间– 差不多在10月8号之前，是吗？
62.DR: Yeah.
大卫： 是的。
63.KA: Obviously, what you faced in trying to do something as substantial as this project — and this is only one of four that you’ve designed to surround the site —
库尔特： 很明显，在试图建造 这个实质性的项目的同时你会面对很多事情–短片上看到的只是 你设计的环绕废墟四周的观景台的四分之一–
64.you must have run up against the incredibly byzantine, entrenched bureaucracy and powers that be in New York real estate and New York politics?
你一定遇到不少困难吧， 在同那些关系复杂又盘根错节的官僚和权力部门 纽约房地产界和政界打交道的时候？
65.DR: Well, it’s a funny thing.
大卫： 确实是件很有趣的事情。
66.We finished PS 234, and had dinner with a small group.
我们完成PS 234 的项目之后，同一个小组一起吃了晚饭。
67.I was actually asked to be a committee chair on an AIA committee to rebuild.
实际上我被邀请担任友邦保险有限公司重建委员会的主席。
68.And I sat in on several meetings.
之后我参加了一些会议。
69.And there were the most sort of circuitous grand plans that had to do with long-term infrastructure and rebuilding the entire city.
很多冗长的宏伟计划被提出来， 都是与长期的基础建设和整个城市的重建相关。
70.And the fact is that there were immediate wounds and needs that needed to be filled, and there was talk about inclusion and wanting it to be an inclusive process.
实际的问题是，有很多紧迫的创伤和需求需要被抚慰和满足。 其中有个谈话是关于广泛性的，他们希望重建是一个广泛性的进程。
71.And it wasn’t an inclusive group.
然而它并不是一个广泛代表性的组织。
72.So we said, what is — KA: It was not an inclusive group?
所以我们说，什么是– 库尔特： 它不是一个广泛性的组织？
73.DR: It was not an inclusive group.
大卫： 它不是。
74.It was predominantly a white, rich, corporate group that was not representative of the city.
它是由白人，富人和公司集团组成的组织 几乎不具有城市代表性。
75.KA: Shocking!
库尔特： 令人吃惊！
76.DR: Yeah, surprising.
大卫： 确实很令人吃惊。
77.So Rick and Liz and Kevin and I came up with the idea.
所以里克，利兹和我想出了那个方案。
78.The city actually approached us.
实际上是市政府先找到我们说这个事情。
79.We first approached the city about Pier 94.
我们开始找到市政府是谈论94号码头的事。
80.We saw how PS 234 worked.
因为我们已经看到了PS 234 的项目是怎么做的。
81.The families — the victims of the families — were going to this pier that was incredibly dehumanizing.
而那些家属–遇害者的家属– 都去那个码头，选择这个地方是非常不合理的。
82.KA: On the Hudson River?
库尔特：在亨登河？
83.DR: Yeah. And the city actually — through Tim Zagat initially, and then through Christyne Nicholas, then we got to Giuliani — said, you know, we don’t want to do anything with Pier 94 right now,
大卫： 是的。市政府实际上–一开始通过蒂姆扎加特， 然后通过克里斯特尼尼古拉斯, 最后我们找到朱利安尼市长– 他说我们暂时不想对94号码头做什么事情，
84.but we have an observation platform for the families down at Ground Zero that we’d like to be a more dignified experience for the families,
但是如果我们能在世贸废墟中心给那些家属提供一个观景台， 那将是给那些家属们一个更加人性化的体验，
85.and a way to protect it from the weather.
可以让他们避免风吹日晒。
86.So I went down there with Rick and Liz and Kevin, and I’ve got to say, it was the most moving experience of my life.
所以我同里克，利兹和凯文去了那里。 我不得不说，这是我生命中最感动的一次经历。
87.It was devastating to see the simple plywood platform with a rail around it, where the families of the victims had left notes to them.
看着简单的夹板和围栏搭成的平台，真是很让人触动 上面还有遇害者的家属留下的话语。
88.And there was no mediation between us and the experience.
在我们和这里的一切经历中无需任何调节
89.There was no filter.
没有任何的过滤。
90.And I remembered on September 11th, on 14th Street, the roof of our building — we can see the World Trade Towers prominently — and I saw the first building collapse from a conference room
我记得9月11号，在14号街， 我们的楼房屋顶上–我们可以清晰的看到世贸大厦– 那时我看到了第一栋楼房倒塌
91.on the eighth floor on a TV that we had set up.
就在8楼会议室安装的电视上。
92.And then everyone was up on the roof, so I ran up there.
然后所有人都跑到屋顶上，我也跑上去了。
93.And it was amazing how much harder it was to believe in real life than it was on TV.
真的非常令人惊讶， 比起在电视上看到的场景，真的很难相信它会在现实生活中发生。
94.There was something about the comfort of the filter and, you know, how much information was between us and the experience.
有种关于过滤的安慰。 在我们和现实体验之间有太多的信息。
95.So seeing this in a very simple, dignified way was a very powerful experience.
所以说通过这种简单 而又威严的方式观看是一种非常强大的体验。
96.So we went back to the city and said, we’re not particularly interested in the upgrade of this as a VIP platform, but we’ve spent some time down there.
所以后来我们又回到市政府那里，跟他们说， 我们现在对把94号码头升级成贵宾看台的想法一点兴趣都没有， 但是我们确实在这件事上花了些时间。
97.And at the same time the city had this need.
同时市政府也有这样的需要。
98.They were looking for a solution to deal with 30 or 40 thousand people a day who were going down there, that had nowhere to go.
他们想要找到一个方案 去处理每天3,4万 去那里又没有其它地方可去的人群。
99.And there was no way to deal with the traffic around the site.
同时他们也没有办法去控制废墟周围的交通。
100.So dealing with it is just an immediate master plan.
所以解决这个问题成了一个迫在眉睫的总体规划。
101.There was a way — there had to be a way — to get people to move around the site.
那里应该有一个通道–而且必须有个通道– 让人们在废墟周围移动起来。
102.KA: But then you’ve got to figure out a way — we will skip over the insanely tedious process of getting permits and getting everybody on board — but simply funding this thing.
库尔特： 但是之后你必须找出一个办法– 我们就跳过那些获得批准 和让每个人各就各位的令人疯狂而厌烦的过程–简单来讲关于钱这个事情。
103.It looks like, you know, a fairly simple thing.
虽然看上去是个相当简单的事情，
104.But this was a half a million dollar project?
但是怎么说这差不多也是个50万美元的项目吧？
105.DR: Well, we knew that if it wasn’t privately funded, it wasn’t going to happen.
大卫： 确实。我们知道如果没有私人出资的话， 它将没法实现。
106.And we also, frankly, knew that if it didn’t happen by the end of the Giuliani administration, then everyone who we were dealing with at the DOT,
坦白来讲，我们也知道如果不能 在朱利安尼市长任期内启动， 我们得重新和那些政府人员打交道，
107.and the Police Department and all of the — we were meeting with 20 or 30 people with the city at a time.
包括交通部，警察局，所有这些政府部门的人– 我们每次开会的2，30个政府部门的人一起。
108.And it was set up by the Office of Emergency Management.
后来是应急管理办公室启动了这个项目。
109.This incredible act on their part, because they really wanted this, and they sensed that this needed to happen.
对于他们来说确实是个很好的举措，因为他们真的很需要这个， 而且他们察觉到这个势在必行。
110.KA: And there was therefore this ticking clock?
库尔特： 因此就有了这个时间截点了？
111.Because Giuliani was obviously out three months after that?
我们知道朱莉安尼在那3个月后就离任了。
112.DR: Yeah. So the first thing we had to do was find a way to get this — we had to work with the families of the victims, through the city, to make sure that they knew this was happening.
大卫： 是的。 所以我们要做的第一件事情就是通气– 我们必须和遇难者家属一起 通过市政府，来确保他们都知道这个项目。
113.Because this didn’t want to be a surprise.
因为我们不想这个项目让大家觉得突然。
114.And we also had to be as under the radar screen as we could be in New York, because the key was not raising a lot of objection and sort of working as quietly as possible.
而且我们还得在纽约尽可能的低调行事， 因为关键是不要引起很多的反对声音， 某种程度上尽可能悄悄地工作。
115.We came up with the idea of setting up a foundation, mainly because when we found a contractor who would build this, he would not agree to do this, even if we would pay him the money.
我们想到建立基金， 主要是因为当我们找到一个可能承建这个项目的承包商的时候， 他很可能不会同意做这个项目，即使我们会支付费用给他。
116.There needed to be a foundation in place.
所以我们需要一个基金。
117.So we came up with a foundation, and actually what happened was one major developer in New York — KA: Who shall remain nameless, I guess?
于是我们就建立了一个基金，实际上主要是 纽约一个大开发商– 库尔特： 我猜是谁甘愿隐姓埋名呢？
118.DR: Yeah. His initials are JS, and he owns Rockefeller Center, if that helps anyone — volunteered to help.
大卫： 他的名字首字母是JS，而且他拥有洛克菲勒中心， 希望这个可以帮大家猜猜–他志愿帮助我们。
119.And we met with him.
后来我们和他见面。
120.The prices from the contractors were between five to 700,000 dollars.
承包商们的报价从5美元到70万美元都有。
121.And Atlantic-Heydt, who’s the largest scaffolding contractor in the country, volunteered to do it at cost.
而美国最大的脚手架承包商亚特南迪克海特， 志愿以成本价承建这个项目。
122.So this developer said, “You know what, we’ll underwrite the entire expense.”
所以那个大开发商说：“你知道吗，我们会支付整个费用。”
123.And we said, “That’s incredible!”
而我们说：“真是好极了！”
124.And I think this was the 21st, and we knew this had to be built and up by the 28th.
我想那天是21号， 而我们知道这个观景台必须在28号之前完工。
125.And we had to start construction the next day.
我们必须在第二天就开始建造。
126.We had a meeting that evening with his contractor of choice, and the contractor showed up with the drawings of the platform about half the size that we had drawn it.
那天晚上我们跟那个承包商开了个会， 那个承包商展示了观景台的草图， 可是它只有我们设计的一半大小。
127.KA: Sort of like the Spinal Tap scene where you get the tiny little Stonehenge, I guess?
库尔特：我猜有点像脊椎塔里的场景， 从那里可以看到微小的巨石阵？
128.(Laughter) DR: In fact, it was as if this was going to be window-washing scaffolding.
（笑） 大卫： 实际上，它就像一个为擦窗户准备的脚手架。
129.There was no sense of the fact that this is — next to Saint Paul — that this is really a place that needs to be kind of dignified,
一点都不符合当时的场景–紧挨着圣保罗教堂– 那是一个需要庄严的地方，
130.and a place to reflect and remember.
一个需要尊重和纪念的地方。
131.And I’ve got to say that we spent a lot of time, in putting this together, watching the crowds that gathered at Saint Paul — which is just to the right — and moving around the site.
我不得不说我们花了那么多时间 把这个搭建起来，看着那些聚集在圣保罗大教堂的拥挤的人群– 正好在右边–在废墟周围移动
132.And I live down there, so we spent a lot of time looking at the need.
我住在那里，所以我们花了很长的时间去了解人们的需要。
133.And I think people were amazed at two things — I think they were amazed at the destruction, but I think there was a sense of disbelief
我想人们会因为两个事情而感到震惊– 他们会因破坏而感到震惊， 但是我想人们也会因怀疑
134.about the heroics of New Yorkers that I found very moving.
纽约人感人的英雄主义而感到震惊。
135.Just the sort of everyday heroics of New Yorkers.
就是某种纽约人的日常的英雄主义。
136.So we were in this meeting, and the contractor literally said, “I’m going to lock the door, because this developer will not agree to have you leave till you’ve signed off on this.”
所以在那个会议上，那个承包商着字着句的说， “我要把门锁起来，因为开发商 不会同意在你们签订这个合约之前放你们走的。”
137.And we said, “Well, this is half the size, it doesn’t have any of the design features that have been agreed upon by everyone — everyone in the city.
而我们说：“但是这只有一半大小， 也没有我们之前同意的任何设计特色 包括城市里的每一个人。
138.We’d have to go back to the beginning to do this.”
我们必须从头开始做这个项目。”
139.And I convinced him that we should leave the room with the agreement to build it as designed.
最后我说服了他，在我们离开会议室之前 我们达成一致，按照原先的设计重新建造。
140.The next day I got an email from the developer saying that he was withdrawing all funding.
第二天我收到开发商的邮件， 他说要撤掉所有的资金。
141.So we didn’t know what to do, but we decided to cast a very wide net.
我们不知道怎么办， 但是我们决定要撒一张大网。
142.We emailed out letters to as many people as we could — several people in the audience here — who were very helpful.
我们给尽可能多的人发了邮件– 包括很多在场的听众–他们都提供了很好的帮助。
143.KA: There was no thought of abandoning ship at that point?
库尔特： 那个时候就没有想过要放弃吗？
144.DR: No. In fact I told the contractor to go ahead.
大卫： 没有。事实上，我告诉那个承包商继续施工。
145.He had already ordered materials based on my go-ahead.
他也已经按照我的要求订购了材料。
146.We knew that one way or another, this was going to happen.
我们知道不管怎么样，这个项目总会完成。
147.And we just felt it had to happen.
我们只是觉得它必须完成。
148.KA: You were funding yourself, then, with contributions and this foundation.
库尔特： 后来你就自己出资，连同一些捐助和这个基金完成这个项目。
149.Richard, I think very correctly, made the point at the beginning — before all the chair designers came out — about the history of chair designers imposing aesthetic solutions
我记得理查德 在刚开始就提到– 就是在所有的项目首席设计师意识到之前– 他说一直以来首席设计师
150.on this kind of universal, banal, common problem of sitting.
对这种很平常的设计问题都追求一种审美方案。
151.It seems to me with this, that it was the opposite of that.
但是对我来说， 这个项目却恰恰相反。
152.Because this was an unprecedented, singular design problem.
因为这是个前所未有的，独一无二的设计问题。
153.DR: Well, here’s the issue.
大卫： 确实，这就是问题所在。
154.We knew that this was not in the sense of — we think about the site, and think about the need for a memorial.
我们知道这个项目确实没有审美的特色– 我们考虑了这个遗址，考虑到人们可能需要一种纪念碑一样的东西。
155.It was important that this not be categorized as a memorial.
但是有一点很重要，这个项目不是一种纪念物。
156.That this was a place for people to reflect, to remember — a kind of quiet place.
而是供人们来凭吊和纪念的场所– 很肃穆的场所。
157.So it led us to using design solutions that created as few filters between the viewer — as we said about the families’ platform — and the experience as possible.
这就使得我们选用了这种设计方案， 尽可能少的在观众和真实的体验之间产生过滤– 就像我们之前说的家属看台一样。
158.It’s all incredibly humble material.
这个看台全都是用难以置信的普通的材料，
159.It’s scaffolding and plywood.
就是脚手架和夹板。
160.And it allows — by sort of the procession of the movement, up by Saint Paul’s and down the other side, it gives you about 300 feet to go up 13 feet from the ground,
它可以使得观众移动起来， 可以上到圣保罗教堂那边然后从另一边下去。 它提供了300英尺长的通道，并可以把你带到离地13英尺的高度，
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