1.John Hockenberry: It’s great to be here with you, Tom.
John Hockenberry:很高兴见到你，Tom.
2.And I want to start with a question that has just been consuming me since I first became familiar with your work.
我想先问一个问题 从我熟悉你的作品开始 就一直让我着迷的问题。
3.In you work there’s always this kind of hybrid quality of a natural force in some sort of interplay with creative force.
自然的力量和创造力总是 以某种方式混在一起 出现在你的作品里。
4.Are they ever in equilibrium in the way that you see your work?
你觉得在你的作品里， 它们是平衡的吗？
5.Tom Shannon: The subject matter that I’m looking for, it’s usually to solve a question.
Tom Shannon:通常我寻找的主要物质 都是可以解决问题的。
6.I had the question popped into my head, what does cone that connects the sun and the Earth look like if you could connect the two spheres?
我突然想起有个问题， 如果能把太阳和地球两个球体连起来， 那么中间那个圆锥体会是怎么样的呢？
7.And in proportion, what would the size of the sphere and the length, and what would the taper be to the Earth?
这个椎体的尺寸，长度 和锥尖和地球有着怎样的比例关系呢？
8.And so I went about it and made that sculpture, turning it out of solid bronze.
所以我着手解决它，并做了这个用 铜铸的模型。
9.And I did one that was about 35 ft. long.
我做了一个大概是35尺长的。
10.The sun end was about four inches in diameter, and then it tapered over about 35 ft.
于是太阳端的直径大概是四寸， 高是35尺，
11.to about a millimeter at the Earth end.
地球端的直径是大概是一毫米。
12.And so for me, it was really exciting just to see what it looks like if you could step outside and into a larger context, as though you were an astronaut,
所以，对于我来说，就算只是看看它 到底是怎样的都会十分令人兴奋。 如果你可以踏出外面，走进一个更大的关系网中， 就好像你成为了一名宇航员一样，
13.and see these two things as an object, because they are so intimately bound.
并把两个物体看做一个物体， 因为他们是如此密切的相关。
14.One is meaningless without the other.
任何一个物体如果缺少另一方的存在都会变得毫无意义。
15.JH: Is there a relief in playing with these forces?
JH:在与这些力量打交道的时候， 您是否曾有过一个信念呢？
16.And I’m wondering how much of a sense of discovery there is in playing with these forces.
同时，我正思考说与这些力量打交道时， 发现新事物的直觉在其中占多少比重呢？
17.TS: Well, like the magnetically levitated objects like that silver one there.
TS:其实，好像磁悬浮物体一样， 比如说：那里那银做的作品。
18.That was the result of hundreds of experiments with magnets, trying to find a way to make something float with the least possible connection to the ground.
这是我经过上百次对 磁力进行实验的结果， 我尝试找到一种可以让物体悬浮， 并跟地面的接触最小化的方法。
19.So I got it down to just one tether to be able to support that.
所以我最后只用一根绳子 拴住它作为支撑。
20.JH: Now is this electromagnetic here, or are these static?
JH：现在是用电磁力吧，那这作品是永久性的吗？
21.TS: Those are permanent magnets, yeah.
TS：是的，那些是永久磁铁。
22.JH: Because if the power went out, there would just be a big noise.
JH：因为如果打开开关， 会有很大噪音。
23.TS: Yeah.
TS:嗯，的确。
24.It’s really unsatisfactory having plug-in art.
有意见要插电的艺术品的确不方便。
25.JH: I agree.
JH:我同意。
26.TS: The magnetic works are a combination of gravity and magnetism, so it’s a kind of mixture of these ambient forces that influence everything.
TS：磁铁的工作 需要结合重力和磁性， 所以它混合了很多这些 对周围物体有影响的力量。
27.The sun has a tremendous field that extends way beyond the planets.
太阳有很多能量是 发送到行星以外的地方。
28.And the Earth’s magnetic field protects us from the sun.
而地球的磁场保护我们免受太阳伤害。
29.So there’s this huge invisible shape structures that magnetism takes in the universe.
所以磁性在宇宙 中有了这巨大的， 不可见的性质。
30.But with the pendulum, it allows me to manifest these invisible forces that are holding the magnets up.
但是，通过钟摆， 我可以明白这些 让磁铁悬浮的， 隐形的力量。
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31.My sculptures are normally very simplified.
我的雕塑通常 都十分简约。
32.I try to refine them down to very simple forms.
我尝试把它们提炼出 一种简单的模式。
33.But the paintings become very complex, because I think the fields that are supporting them, they’re billowing, and they’re interpenetrating,
但说到绘画的时候就十分复杂了， 因为那些我认为对 作品有启发性的场 各自都在躁动着，
34.and they’re interference patterns.
它们正互相渗透，它们是互相关联的。
35.JH: And they’re non-deterministic.
JH:而且它们是不确定的。
36.I mean, you don’t know necessarily where you’re headed when you begin, even though the forces can be calculated.
我是指你开始的时候不知道你将会走到那个地方， 尽管那些力量都可以被测量。
37.So the evolution of this — I gather this isn’t your first pendulum.
所以，这个的革新是— 我想这不是你首个钟摆作品。
38.TS: No. (JH: No.) TS: The first one I did was in the late 70’s, and I just had a simple cone with a spigot at the bottom of it.
TS:不是（JH:嗯，不是。） TS：我做的第一个是在70年代后期， 我只有一个简单的圆锥， 圆锥底部有一个栓。
39.I threw it into an orbit, and it only had one color, and when it got to the center, the paint kept running out, so I had to run in there,
我把它抛出去，让它沿着一个轨迹运动， 而这只有一种颜色， 当它逐渐离中心越来越近的时候，颜料快用完了， 所以我只能停在那里了，
40.didn’t have any control over the spigot remotely.
那时候我对那个栓没有任何遥控。
41.So that told me right away, I need a remote control device.
所以那告诉我，我需要遥控那个装置。
42.But then I started dreaming of having six colors.
但是，然后我想我的画能有6种颜色。
43.I sort of think about it as the DNA — these colors, the red, blue, yellow, the primary colors and white and black.
我把它大概想象成了DNA— 这些颜色，红，蓝，黄， 三原色和白，黑。
44.And if you put them together in different combinations — just like printing in a sense, like how a magazine color is printed — and put them under certain forces,
如果你把它们用不同的方法组合起来— 好像打印一样， 比如说，杂志颜色就是这样混合出来的— 组合的同时，用它们一定的力量控制它们
45.which is orbiting them or passing them back and forth or drawing with them, these amazing things started appearing.
沿一定轨迹运动， 或者让它们前后运动 或者用它们作画， 这时候，这些美妙的东西开始出现了。
46.JH: It looks like we’re loaded for bear here.
JH:这看上去我们是为了防备熊才搞成这样。
47.TS: Yeah, well let’s put a couple of canvases.
TS：好的，让我们准备一些画布
48.I’ll ask a couple of my sons to set up the canvases here.
我会问一下我的徒弟们 去准备几块画布放在这里。
49.I’ll just say that — so this is Jack, Nick and Louie.
让我介绍一下— 这是Jack, Nick, Louie。
50.JH: Thanks guys.
JH：谢谢，伙计们。
51.TS: So here are the — JH: All right. I’ll get out of the way.
TS：所以这里有— JH：好，先让我走开。
52.TS: I’m just going to throw this into an orbit and see if I can paint everybody’s shoes in the front.
TS：我准备让这个沿着轨迹运动 并看看我能不能画出在场前排各位的鞋子。
53.(Laughter) JH: Whoa. That is …
（笑声） JH：哇，这是…
54.Ooh. Nice.
噢，十分漂亮。
55.TS: So something like this.
TS：我做的就是这些。
56.I doing this as a demo, and it’s more playful.
我做这个是作为一个示范， 更多是游戏性质的。
57.But inevitably, all of this can be used.
但可见， 所有这些都是可以作为素材的。
58.I can redeem this painting, just continuing on doing layers upon layers.
我可以通过继续在上面画，一 层叠一层地来 改善这幅画。
59.And I keep it around for a couple of weeks.
这个过程会持续几个星期。
60.And I’m contemplating it, and I’ll do another session with it and bring it up to another level, where all of this becomes the background, he depth of it.
我会凝视它， 而且我会再次重复上面的步骤 以把它带到另一个层次， 在那里，这些 都会变成背景，深埋在画面底下。
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61.JH: That’s fantastic.
JH：这太棒了。
62.So the valves at the bottoms of the tubes there are like radio-controlled airplane valves.
所以底部那些管道的阀门 就好像无线电飞机的阀门
63.TS: Yes, they’re servos with cams that pinch these rubber tubes.
TS：是啊，他们通过凸轮轴 固定这些橡胶管来工作。
64.And they can pinch them very tight and stop it, or you can have them wide open.
他们可以上紧轮轴来停止它， 也可以调得很松。
65.And all of the colors come out one central port at the bottom.
所有颜色都 从一个在底部的 中央点那里出来。
66.You can always be changing colors, put aluminum paint, or I could put anything into this.
你可以随时改变颜色，比如把铝放进去， 其实我任何东西都可以放进去。
67.It could be tomato sauce, or anything could be dispensed — sand, powders, anything like that.
可能是番茄酱， 或者什么可以分散的— 沙子，粉末，或者类似的。
68.JH: So many forces there.
JH：原来有如此多的力量混在这里。
69.You’ve got gravity, you’ve got the centrifugal force, you’ve got the fluid dynamics.
重力，离心力， 液体表面张力。
70.Each of these beautiful paintings, are they in and of themselves, or are they records of a physical event called the pendulum approaching the canvas?
这里每一张美丽的图画， 都有它们自己的特质，又超越了它们的特质， 和它们曾做过的 在纸张上做 钟摆运动的物理现象？
71.TS: Well, this painting here, I wanted to do something very simple, a simple, iconic image of two ripples interfering.
TS：那么，就着这张作品， 我想做一些十分简单的事情， 画一个简单，图标式的 两条波浪交汇的图案。
72.So the one on the right was done first, and then the one on the left was done over it.
首先右手边的这一个先做， 然后左边的这一个 用自己的画覆盖上去。
73.And then I left gaps so you could see the one that was done before.
然后我留下空位 让你可以看到之前做的那些。
74.And then when I did the second one, It really disturbed the piece — these big blue lines crashing through the center of it.
然后我做第二次， 这些线真的扰乱了这作品— 这些蓝色的线条 在中心杂乱地穿过。
75.And so it created a kind of tension and an overlap.
所以我制造了一种张力和一种重叠。
76.There are lines in front of the one on the right, and there are lines behind the one on the left.
这里有些线条在右边画的那些的上面， 这里有线条在左边画的那些的下面。
77.And so it takes it into different planes.
所以我把它分进不同平面。
78.What it’s also about, just the little events, the events of the interpenetration of — JH: Two stars, or — TS: Two things that happened,
就是这么做的， 这只是一些小作品， 这是一种交汇，有关…. JH：两颗星星，或者— TS：两件发生了的事情，
79.there’s an interference pattern, and then a third thing happens.
这里是一个重叠的图案，然后，第三件事情产生了。
80.There are shapes that come about just by the marriage of two events that are happening.
这里一些图形掺和了进来， 正是在两个图案 联姻的时候。
81.And I’m very interested in that.
我对此十分感兴趣。
82.Like the occurrence of moire patterns.
就好像云纹图案的创作。
83.Like this green one, this is a painting I did about 10 years ago.
比如这个绿色的， 这是一幅我大概10年前画的画。
84.But it has some — see, in the upper third — there are these moires and interference patterns that are radio kind of imagery.
但是它有一些— 看，上面第三个— 这里有一些云纹重叠的图案 好像是想象力的不断迸发。
85.And that’s something in painting I’ve never seen done.
而这是一些从来没试过 在我的作品里出现的东西。
86.I’ve never seen a representation of a kind of radio interference patterns, which are so ubiquitous and such an important part of our lives.
我从来没有见过这种 如此普遍、在我们生活中 如此重要的放射状的 重叠图案出现在我的画中。
87.JH: Is that a literal part of the image, or in my eye making that interference pattern?
JH：这是画中一个真实的重叠图案， 还是我眼睛错觉造成的呢?
88.Am I completing that interference pattern?
是我自己造成的这种图案吗？
89.TS: It is the paint actually, makes it real.
TS：是画的原因， 让这感觉如此真实。
90.It’s really manifested there.
这其实很容易明白。
91.If I throw a very concentric circle, or concentric ellipse, it just dutifully makes these even spaced lines, which get closer and closer together,
如果我定一个同心圆， 或者一个同心的弧形， 它只会完成这个任务， 画出这些固定的线条 这些线条靠得越来越近，
92.which describes how gravity works.
并因此告诉人们重力到底是怎样工作的。
93.There’s something very appealing about the exactitude of science that I really enjoy.
这里有一些关于科学的正确性 的东西很显而易见。 我很享受这些东西。
94.And I love the shapes that I see in scientific observations and apparatus, especially astronomical forms and the idea of the vastness of it,
我很喜欢这些我 在科学观察和 仪器中见到的形状， 特别是航天类的， 它那广阔
95.the scale, is very interesting to me.
和精确的计算 让我十分着迷。
96.My focus in recent years has kind of shifted more toward biology.
我近年的焦点 某程度上转向了生物。
97.Some of these paintings, when you look at them very close, odd things appear that really look like horses or birds or crocodiles, elephants.
有一些作品，如果你近距离地观察它们， 你会发现奇怪的东西， 这些东西看起来像马或者鸟 又或者是鳄鱼，大象。
98.There are lots of things that appear.
有很多这些东西出现。
99.When you look into it, it’s sort of like looking at cloud patterns, but sometimes they’re very modeled and highly rendered.
如果你仔细地观察，这些图案有点像云， 但有时候它们只是一个模型，而且是高度抽象了的。
100.And then there are all these forms that we don’t know what they are, but they’re equally well-resolved and complex.
然后有了这些图案 我不知道它们是什么， 但是它们很好看， 而且复杂。
101.So I think, conceivably, those could be predictive.
我想，有可能是预言。
102.Because since it has the ability to make forms that look like forms that we’re familiar with in biology, it’s also making other forms that we’re not familiar with.
因为自从它有能力 自己创造 我们熟悉的 生物图案， 它也创造了我们不熟悉的图案。
103.And maybe it’s the kinds of forms someone will discover underneath the surface of Mars, where there are probably lakes with fish swimming under the surface.
也许人们会从火星 表面下发现这些图案， 那些地区里有湖泊 可以让鱼在下面游泳。
104.JH: Oh, let’s hope so. Oh, my God, let’s.
JH:噢，但愿如此，天啊，让我，
105.Oh, please, yes. Oh, I’m so there.
哦，天啊，我好像置身其中了。
106.You know, it seems at this stage in your life, you also very personally are in this state of confrontation with a sort of dissonant —
它好像在你生命的舞台上 占据了一个位置， 你自己也 正处于一个矛盾的， 有一系列不协调—
107.I suppose it’s an electromagnetic force that somehow governs Parkinson’s and this creative force that is both the artist who is in the here and now
我想有一种类似电磁力的东西 在控制帕金森症， 而这种创造性的力量 是艺术家们 朝思暮想的，
108.and this sort of arc of your whole life.
也是贯穿你整个生命的一道弧线。
109.Is that relevant to your work?
那么这是否与你的工作相关？
110.TS: As it turns out, this device kind of comes in handy, because I don’t have to have the fine motor skills to do, that I can operate slides,
TS：结果是 这装置越来越便携了， 因为我不一定需要 好的控制电源的技术， 我也能控制圆锥的滑动，
111.which is more of a mental process.
这其实是一项脑力运动，
112.I’m looking at it and making decisions.
我看着它，做各种决定。
113.It needs more red, it needs more blue, it needs a different shape.
它需要多点红色，它需要多点蓝色， 它需要一个不同的形状。
114.And so I make these creative decisions and can execute them in a much, much simpler way.
所以我做出了有创意的决定 并将它们用一个十分十分 简单的方法付诸实践、
115.I mean, I’ve got the symptoms.
我的意思是，我有这些症状。
116.I guess Parkinson’s kind of creeps up over the years, but at a certain point you start seeing the symptoms.
我想帕金森在这几年有加重的趋势， 对于你来说，你会看到明显的征兆。
117.In my case, my left hand has a significant tremor and my left leg also.
对于我来说， 就是我左手的一个特别的颤抖， 我的左脚也是这样。
118.I’m left-handed, and so I draw.
我是左撇子，所以我画画。
119.All my creations really start on small drawings, which I have thousands of.
我的所有创意 真的来源于一幅幅小绘画， 我有上千张这些小画。
120.And it’s my way of just thinking.
我想东西的时候
121.I draw with a simple pencil.
我会拿着一只铅笔画画。
122.And at first, the Parkinson’s was really upsetting, because I couldn’t get the pencil to stand still.
开始的时候，帕金森 真的十分令人沮丧， 因为我不能稳定的拿着铅笔。
123.JH: So you’re not a gatekeeper for these forces.
JH：所以，你不是这些力量的守护者。
124.You don’t think of yourself as the master of these forces.
你不觉得自己是这些力量的主人。
125.You think of yourself as the servant.
相反，你觉得自己是它们的奴隶。
126.TS: Nature is — well, it’s a Godsend.
TS：自然是—自然是神明。
127.It just has so much in it.
它含有太多太多。
128.And I think nature wants to express itself in the sense that we are nature, humans are of the universe.
我觉得自然 想要表达我们也是自然地一部分，我们也是宇宙的一部分。 也是自然地一部分， 我们也是宇宙的一部分。
129.The universe is in our mind, and our minds are in the universe.
宇宙在我们心中， 我们心中也拥有整个宇宙。
130.And we are expressions of the universe, basically.
本质上说，我们是宇宙 表达出来的产物。
131.As humans, ultimately being part of the universe, we’re kind of the spokespeople or the observer part of the constituency of the universe.
作为人类， 最终成为宇宙的一部分， 我们某程度上是 做了表达者 或者全部宇宙 居民的观察者。
132.And to interface with it, with a device that lets these forces that are everywhere act and show what it can do, giving them pigment and paint just like an artist,
为了与这些力量产生共鸣， 我们用一个装置，让这些遍布周围 的力量展示它能做的事情， 给它们色彩， 让它们如艺术家般作画，
133.it’s a good ally.
这是一种很好的关系。
134.It’s a terrific studio assistant.
这是个让人震惊的工作室助手。
135.JH: Well, I love the idea that somewhere within this idea of fine motion and control with the traditional skills that you have with your hand,
JH： 我喜欢这个想法 在这个想法里 有着一些你双手可以控制的 传统技术， 里面夹带着正面的情绪和控制。
136.some sort of more elemental force gets revealed, and that’s the beauty here.
一些掺杂各种元素的力量得到呈现， 而这正是它美丽之处。
137.Tom, thank you so much. It’s been really, really great.
Tom，非常感谢，这感觉真的是棒极了。
138.TS: Thank you, John.
TS：谢谢，John.
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