1.Philosophers, dramatists, theologians have grappled with this question for centuries: What makes people go wrong?
许多世纪以来，哲学家，剧作家，神学家 都在着力解决这个问题： 什么使人们变坏？
2.Interestingly, I asked this question when I was a little kid.
有趣的是，当我还是小孩时，我问过同样的问题。
3.When I was a kid growing up in the South Bronx, inner-city ghetto in New York, I was surrounded by evil, as all kids are who grew up in an inner city.
我在纽约南布朗克斯市中的贫民窟长大， 周围充满了罪恶， 如同所有在贫民窟长大的孩子一样。
4.And I had friends who were really good kids, who lived out the Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde scenario — Robert Louis Stevenson.
我有一些朋友，他们曾是好孩子， 但他们的人生却如同罗伯特·路易斯·斯蒂文森笔下的变身怪医，由善转恶。
5.That is, they took drugs, got in trouble, went to jail.
他们染毒，惹了麻烦，然后进了监狱。
6.Some got killed, and some did it without drug assistance.
有些丧了命，即使并没有沾染毒品。
7.So when I read Robert Louis Stevenson, that wasn’t fiction.
所以当我读罗伯特·路易斯·斯蒂文森的作品时，我觉得那不是小说。
8.The only question is, what was in the juice?
唯一的问题是：酿成由善转恶的毒药是什么？
9.And more importantly, that line between good and evil — which privileged people like to think is fixed and impermeable, with them on the good side, and the others on the bad side —
更重要的是，善恶之间的界限—— 特权阶层喜欢认定这个界限是固定且不可逾越的， 认为他们是在善的一边，其他人在恶的一边——
10.I knew that line was movable, and it was permeable.
而我以前就知道这个界限是可以移动的，而且是可逾越的。
11.Good people could be seduced across that line, and under good and some rare circumstances bad kids could recover with help, with reform, with rehabilitation.
好人可以受诱惑而越界， 偶尔在某些比较好的情况下，坏孩子也可能 依靠外界的帮助、改造、治疗，以重塑人生。
12.So I want to begin with this this wonderful illusion by [Dutch] artist M.C. Escher.
所以，我想以荷兰艺术家M. C. Escher 这幅奇妙的作品开始说起。
13.If you look at it and focus on the white, what you see is a world full of angels.
如果你把视线集中在白色区域， 你会看到一个充满了天使的世界。
14.But let’s look more deeply, and as we do, what appears is the demons, the devils in the world.
但是当我们再靠近一点看， 魔鬼就出现了，世间的魔鬼。
15.And that tells us several things.
这告诉我们几点。
16.One: the world is, was, will always be filled with good and evil, because good and evil is the Yin and Yang of the human condition.
一：这个世界，无论过去，现在，还是将来，都总是由善和恶组成， 因为善恶就如人类的阴阳。
17.It tells me something else. If you remember, God’s favorite angel was Lucifer.
它也告诉我另外一件事。如果你还记得， 上帝最喜欢的天使是路西法。
18.Apparently, Lucifer means “the light.”
显然，路西法的意思是“光明”。
19.It also means “the morning star,” in some scripture.
在某些经文里，它也有“黎明之星”的意思。
20.And apparently he disobeyed God, and that’s the ultimate disobedience to authority.
显然他后来背叛了上帝， 这是对权威的终极背叛。
21.And when he did, Michael the Archangel was sent to kick him out of heaven along with the other fallen angels.
当他率众背叛后，上帝派迈克天使长 将他和其他堕落的天使一起赶出天堂。
22.And so Lucifer descends into hell, becomes Satan, becomes the devil, and the force of evil in the universe begins.
于是路西法降入地狱，成为撒旦， 成为恶魔，宇宙中的恶之能量诞生了。
23.Paradoxically, it was God who created hell as a place to store evil.
矛盾的是，是上帝造出了恶的容身之处—地狱。
24.He didn’t do a good job of keeping it there though.
他却没能使恶一直呆在那里。
25.So, this arc of the cosmic transformation of God’s favorite angel into the Devil, for me, sets the context for understanding human beings
所以，从上帝最受宠的天使变为恶魔， 这个巨大的转变， 为我设立了一个大背景，
26.who are transformed from good, ordinary people into perpetrators of evil.
去理解那些从好人或者普通人 转变成坏人的人。
27.So the Lucifer Effect, although it focuses on the negatives — the negatives that people can become, not the negatives that people are —
所以，路西法效应，尽管它集中在阴暗的方面—— 人们可能投向阴暗， 但他们本身并非阴暗——
28.leads me to a psychological definition: evil is the exercise of power.
引导我作出一个心理学定义：恶是行使权力
29.And that’s the key: it’s about power.
这才是关键：权力。
30.To intentionally harm people psychologically, to hurt people physically, to destroy people mortally, or ideas, and to commit crimes against humanity.
来故意对他人进行心理伤害， 对他人进行身体伤害，残害他人生命或思想， 犯下反人道的罪行。
31.If you Google “evil,” a word that should surely have withered by now, you come up with 136 million hits in a third of a second.
如果你用谷歌搜索evil (恶) 这个词——时至今日，这本是个早应消亡的词， 你会在1/3秒内得到1.36亿个搜索结果。
32.A few years ago — I am sure all of you were shocked, as I was, with the revelation of American soldiers abusing prisoners in a strange place
几年前发生的一件事——我知道你们当时一定和我一样震惊， 就是揭露美军士兵 在那场争议性的对伊战争中
33.in a controversial war: Abu Ghraib in Iraq.
中的虐囚行为：阿布格莱布虐囚事件。
34.And these were men and women who were putting prisoners through unbelievable humiliation.
这些士兵，有男性也有女性， 对囚犯们实施了让人难以置信的羞辱。
35.I was shocked, but I wasn’t surprised, because I had seen those same visual parallels when I was the prison superintendent of the Stanford Prison Study.
我很震惊，但是并不感到意外， 因为我以前看到过类似的情况， 当时我是斯坦福监狱实验的负责人。
36.Immediately the Bush administration military said … what?
布什政府军方对此事的第一反应是什么？
37.What all administrations say when there’s a scandal.
是丑闻发生后任何官方都会说的套词，
38.”Don’t blame us. It’s not the system. It’s the few bad apples, the few rogue soldiers.”
“不要怪我们。这与整个系统无关。只是几个坏苹果而已， 只是一小撮恶劣的士兵而已。”
39.My hypothesis is American soldiers are good, usually.
而我的假设是，美国士兵通常情况下是好的。
40.Maybe it was the barrel that was bad.
也许是装苹果的桶坏了。
41.But how am I going to — how am I going to deal with that hypothesis?
但我如何证明这个假设呢？
42.I became an expert witness for one of the guards, Sergeant Chip Frederick, and in that position, I had access to the dozen investigative reports.
我成为了其中一个名叫 奇普·弗莱德里克中士的专家证人， 在这个位置上，我可以接触到关于此事的十几份调查报告。
43.I had access to him. I could study him, have him come to my home, get to know him, do psychological analysis to see was he a good apple or bad apple.
我同他接触，我可以研究他， 让他来我家，了解他， 作些心理上的分析来判断他是个好苹果还是坏苹果。
44.And thirdly, I had access to all of the 1,000 pictures that these soldiers took.
第三点，我可以查看所有的 1000多张士兵拍摄的照片。
45.These pictures are of a violent or sexual nature.
这些照片都是暴力或色情的。
46.All of them come from the cameras of American soldiers.
所有这些都是美军士兵用相机拍摄的。
47.Because everybody has a digital camera or cell phone camera, they took pictures of everything. More than 1,000.
因为每个人都有数码相机或手机相机， 他们什么都拍。拍了超过1000张照片。
48.And what I’ve done is I organized them into various categories.
我所做的是把它们分类。
49.But these are by United States Military Police, Army Reservists.
但这些由陆军预备役的美军宪兵所拍摄的。
50.They are not soldiers prepared for this mission at all.
他们完全不是为执行此项任务而设立的部队。
51.And it all happened in a single place, Tier 1A, on the night shift.
而此事仅发生在一个地点，1A层，在夜间值班时间。
52.Why? Tier 1A was the center for military intelligence.
为什么？1A层是军方情报中心。
53.It was the interrogation hold. The CIA was there.
是审讯关押处。中央情报局在那里。
54.Interrogators from Titan Corporation, all there, and they’re getting no information about the insurgency.
巨人公司（美军外包公司）的审讯人员，全部都在那里， 而他们得不到任何关于暴动的信息。
55.So they’re going to put pressure on these soldiers, Military Police, to cross the line, give them permission to break the will of the enemy,
于是他们向这些宪兵队士兵施加压力， 迫使他们越线， 允许他们采取措施来击溃敌人的意志，
56.to prepare them for interrogation, to soften them up, to take the gloves off. Those are the euphemisms, and this is how it was interpreted.
挽起袖子，为审讯做准备， 使他们屈服。这些都是婉辞， 而这就是他们如何阐释的。
57.Let’s go down to that dungeon.
让我们进入那个地牢吧。
58.(Camera shutter) (Thuds) (Camera shutter) (Thuds) (Breathing) (Bells) So, pretty horrific.
（相机快门声）（以下图片含有裸露及暴力展示） （重击声） （相机快门声） （重击声） （喘息声） （钟声） 很恐怖。
59.That’s one of the visual illustrations of evil.
这是恶的一种视觉展示。
60.And it should not have escaped you that the reason I paired the prisoner with his arms out with Leonardo da Vinci’s Ode to Humanity,
你应该不会没有注意到， 我把那个伸开双臂的囚犯 和达芬奇颂扬人类的作品放在一起的原因，
61.is that that prisoner was mentally ill.
是那个犯人得了精神疾病。
62.That prisoner covered himself with shit every day, and they used to have to roll him in dirt so he wouldn’t stink.
那个犯人每天用大便涂抹在身上， 士兵们不得不使他在泥土里打滚，以消除臭味。
63.But the guards ended up calling him Shit Boy.
但士兵们最终还是叫他屎男。
64.What was he doing in that prison rather than in some mental institution?
他在监狱里做什么？! 他本应在精神病院。
65.In any event, here’s former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
不管怎样，前国防部长拉姆斯菲尔德
66.he comes down and says, “I want to know who is responsible?
下来问，”我想知道谁该为此负责？
67.Who are the bad apples?” Well, that’s a bad question.
到底谁才是那几个坏苹果？”嗯，这是个差劲的问题。
68.You have to reframe it and ask, “What is responsible?”
你应该重新组织一下这个句子，”是什么为此负责？”
69.Because “what” could be the who of people, but it could also be the what of the situation, and obviously that’s wrongheaded.
因为”什么”既可以是指人， 也可以是指情境， 而显然那样问是坚持错误。
70.So how do psychologists go about understanding such transformations of human character, if you believe that they were good soldiers
那么心理学家是如何理解 这种人性的转变呢？ 如果你相信他们在进入地牢之前
71.before they went down to that dungeon?
是好士兵的话。
72.There are three ways. The main way is, it’s called dispositional.
有三种方式。最主要的方式是所谓的特质论。
73.We look at what’s inside of the person, the bad apples.
我们查看那些坏苹果的内在特征。
74.This is the foundation of all of social sciences, the foundation of religion, the foundation of war.
这是所有社会科学的基础， 宗教的基础，战争的基础。
75.Social psychologists like me come along and say, “Yeah, people are the actors on the stage, but you’ll have to be aware of what that situation is.
像我这样的社会心理学家会出来说，”是啊， 人们是舞台上的演员， 但你得清楚其所处的情境。
76.Who are the cast of characters? What’s the costume?
扮演角色的演员是哪些人？戏服什么样？
77.Is there a stage director?”
有舞台导演吗？
78.And so we’re interested in, what are the external factors around the individual, the bad barrel?
所以我们感兴趣的是，个体周围的外界因素 是什么，坏的苹果桶？
79.And social scientists stop there and they miss the big point that I discovered when I became an expert witness for Abu Ghraib.
社会学家研究的仅限于此，却遗漏了这个很重要的问题， 即我在成为阿布格莱布虐囚事件的专家证人后所发现的：
80.The power is in the system.
权力存在于系统中。
81.The system creates the situation that corrupts the individuals, and the system is the legal, political, economic, cultural background.
系统制造出腐化个体的情境， 这个系统，是指法制、政治、经济和文化背景。
82.And this is where the power is of the bad-barrel makers.
该系统即苹果桶制造者权力之所在。
83.So if you want to change a person you’ve got to change the situation.
如果你想改变一个人，你就得改变其所处的情境。
84.If you want to change the situation, you’ve got to know where the power is in the system.
如果你要改变情境， 你得知道其权力存在于系统的何处。
85.So the Lucifer Effect involves understanding human character transformations with these three factors.
所以路西法效应牵涉到理解 人性转变是如何受这三项因素影响的。
86.And it’s a dynamic interplay.
它是一个相互作用的过程。
87.What do the people bring into the situation?
人们会怎样影响情境？
88.What does the situation bring out of them?
情境如何影响人们？
89.And what is the system that creates and maintains that situation?
制造并维持该情境的系统是什么？
90.So my book, The Lucifer Effect, recently published, is about, how do you understand how good people turn evil?
我最近出版的书《路西法效应》， 就是关于我们如何理解好人是怎样变成恶人的。
91.And it has a lot of detail about what I’m going to talk about today.
书中有关于我今天演讲内容 的大量细节。
92.So Dr. Z’s “Lucifer Effect,” although it focuses on evil, really is a celebration of the human mind’s infinite capacity to make any of us kind or cruel,
所以，津博士的《路西法效应》，尽管着重于恶， 但其实是颂扬人类有无限的潜力， 使我们任何人向善或作恶，
93.caring or indifferent, creative or destructive, and it makes some of us villains.
关怀或冷漠，创造或毁灭， 甚至可以使得我们其中一些人成为恶棍。
94.And the good news story that I’m going to hopefully come to at the end is that it makes some of us heroes.
而我在最后将满怀希望地给大家讲一个好消息的故事， 即这潜力也可以使我们其中一些人成为英雄。
95.This is a wonderful cartoon in the New Yorker, which really summarizes my whole talk: “I’m neither a good cop nor a bad cop, Jerome.
这是登在《纽约客》上非常棒的一个漫画， 它其实总结了我的全部演讲： “杰罗姆，我既不是好警察也不是坏警察，
96.Like yourself, I’m a complex amalgam of positive and negative personality traits that emerge or not, depending on the circumstances.”
跟你一样，我是一个正面和负面人格特质 的复杂混合体， 至于体现哪一面，要靠具体情况而言。”
97.(Laughter) There’s a study some of you think you know about, but very few people have ever read the story. You watched the movie.
（笑声） 有一项研究，你们其中一些人可能以为自己知道， 但极少数人读过这个故事。你看过电影。
98.This is Stanley Milgram, little Jewish kid from the Bronx, and he asked the question, “Could the holocaust happen here, now?”
这是斯坦利·米尔格拉姆，自小在布朗克斯长大的一个犹太人， 他问，”大屠杀在此时此地发生吗？”
99.People say, “No, that’s Nazi Germany, that’s Hitler, you know, that’s 1939.”
人们回答，”不，那是纳粹德国， 那是希特勒，你知道，那是1939年。”
100.He said, “Yeah, but suppose Hitler asked you, ‘Would you electrocute a stranger?’ ‘No way, not me, I’m a good person.'”
他说，”是啊，但如果希特勒问你， ‘你会用电刑处死一个陌生人吗？’ ‘ 没门儿，我肯定不会，我是个好人。”
101.He said, “Why don’t we put you in a situation and give you a chance to see what you would do?”
他说，”那么我们不如把你放在一个情境里， 给你一个机会，看看你会怎么做？”
102.And so what he did was he tested 1,000 ordinary people.
于是，他找了1000个普通人来做测试。
103.500 New Haven, Connecticut; 500 Bridgeport.
500人来自康州纽黑文，500人来自布里奇波特。
104.And the ad said, “Psychologists want to understand memory, we want to improve people’s memory, because memory is the key to success.” OK?
广告是这样说的，”心理学家想要研究人的记忆， 我们想改善人的记忆， 因为记忆是成功的关键。”
105.”We’re going to give you five bucks — four dollars for your time.”
“我们会给你5美元——4元用来支付时间。”
106.And it said “We don’t want college students; we want men between 20 and 50″
上面写着，”我们不要大学生， 我们需要20到50岁之间的男性。”
107.– in the later studies they ran women — ordinary people: barbers, clerks, white-collar people.
——他们在后来的实验中也研究了女性—— 他们都是普通人：理发师，收银员，白领等等。
108.So you go down, and one of you is going to be a learner, and one of you is going to be a teacher.
于是你们下去，其中一个扮演学生， 另一个扮演教师。
109.The learner’s a genial, middle-aged guy.
学生是一个和蔼的中年男子。
110.He gets tied up to the shock apparatus in another room.
在另外一间屋子里，他被绑在一个电击仪器上。
111.The learner could be middle-aged, could be as young as twenty.
学生可能是中年人，也可能是二十多岁。
112.And one of you is told by the authority, the guy in the lab coat, “Your job as teacher is to give this guy material to learn.
穿实验室工作服的负责人，即权威角色，会告诉你们其中一个人说， “你作为教师的工作就是让这个人学习材料。
113.Gets it right, reward him.
记对了，就奖励他。
114.Gets it wrong, you press a button on the shock box.
记错了，你就按这个电击盒上的按钮。
115.The first button is 15 volts. He doesn’t even feel it.”
第一个按钮是15伏特。他基本感觉不到。”
116.That’s the key. All evil starts with 15 volts.
这就是关键。所有的恶都是从15伏特开始的。
117.And then the next step is another 15 volts.
下一个再加15伏特。
118.The problem is, at the end of the line, it’s 450 volts.
问题是，最后一个按钮，是450伏特。
119.And as you go along the guy is screaming, “I’ve got a heart condition! I’m out of here!”
随着你不断加电压，那个人就会惨叫， “我有心脏问题！我要出去！”
120.You’re a good person. You complain.
你是一个好人。你去投诉。
121.”Sir, who’s going to be responsible if something happens to him?”
“先生，如果他出事了，谁来负责？”
122.The experimenter says, “Don’t worry, I will be responsible.
实验人员说，”不要紧，我来负责。
123.Continue, teacher.”
请继续，教师。”
124.And the question is, who would go all the way to 450 volts?
问题是，谁会一直按到450伏特？
125.You should notice here, when it gets up to 375, it says, “Danger: Severe Shock.”
你们会注意到，到375伏特时， 上面写着，”危险：强烈电击”
126.When it gets up to here, there’s “XXX”: the pornography of power.
到这儿的时候，那儿标着 “XXX” ：少儿不宜的级别。
127.(Laughter) So Milgram asks 40 psychiatrists, “What percent of American citizens would go to the end?”
（笑声） 于是米尔格拉姆问了40个精神病医生， “百分之多少的美国人会按到最高电压？”
128.They said only 1 percent. Because that’s sadistic behavior, and we know, psychiatry knows, only 1 percent of Americans are sadistic.
他们回答只有百分之1。因为那属于虐待狂行为， 而且我们知道，精神病学显示，只有百分之1的美国人是虐待狂。
129.OK. Here’s the data. They could not be more wrong.
好。这里是研究资料。他们大错特错。
130.Two-thirds go all the way to 450 volts. This was just one study.
三分之二的人会一直按到450伏特。这只是一个研究而已。
131.Milgram did more than 16 studies. And look at this.
米尔格拉姆做了超过16项研究。我们看一下这个。
132.In study 16, where you see somebody like you go all the way, 90 percent go all the way. In study five, if you see people rebel, 90 percent rebel.
在第16个研究中，你可以看到跟你们一样的人们有百分之90 会一直按到450伏特。在第5个研究中，如果有人反抗，百分之90的人反抗。
133.What about women? Study 13: no different than men.
女性呢？第13个研究：与男性无差别。
134.So Milgram is quantifying evil as the willingness of people to blindly obey authority, to go all the way to 450 volts.
米尔格拉姆在以人们盲目服从权威， 一直按到450伏特的意愿，来数量化恶。
135.And it’s like a dial on human nature.
这就好像是在调节人性。
136.A dial in a sense that you can make almost everybody totally obedient down to the majority, down to none.
调节的意思是，你几乎可以从使绝大多数人完全服从， 到使没有人服从。
137.So what are the external parallels? For all research is artificial.
那么，外界世界有什么类似情况吗？毕竟所有的实验都是人为的。
138.What’s the validity in the real world?
它在真实世界中的有效性如何？
139.912 American citizens committed suicide or were murdered by family and friends in Guyana jungle in 1978, because they were blindly obedient to this guy, their pastor.
1978年，在圭亚那丛林里，有912名美国人 自杀或遭其家人朋友杀害， 因为他们盲目地服从这个家伙，他们的传道者。
140.Not their priest. Their pastor, Reverend Jim Jones.
不是他们的神父。他们的传道者，吉姆·琼斯主教。
141.He persuaded them to commit mass suicide.
他说服他们进行集体自杀。
142.And so he’s the modern Lucifer Effect.
所以他是一个当代的路西法效应。
143.A man of God who becomes the Angel of Death.
从上帝使者变成死亡天使。
144.Milgram’s study is all about individual authority to control people.
米尔格拉姆的研究完全是关于控制大众的个人权力。
145.Most of the time we are in institutions, so the Stanford Prison Study is a study of the power of institutions to influence individual behavior.
大多数时间我们在机构里， 所以斯坦福监狱实验，研究的是机构权力 如何影响个人行为。
146.Interestingly, Stanley Milgram and I were in the same high school class in James Monroe in the Bronx, 1954.
有趣的是，斯坦利·米尔格拉姆和我上高中的时候在同一个班级， 那是1954年，在布朗克斯的詹姆斯·门罗高中。
147.So this study, which I did with my graduate students, especially Craig Haney, we also began work with an ad.
这个实验室是我跟 我的研究生做的，尤其是克雷格·汉尼， 我们也从打广告开始。
148.We didn’t have money, so we had a cheap, little ad, but we wanted college students for a study of prison life.
我们没什么钱，于是我们打了一个简单的小广告， 我们想找大学生来研究一下监狱生活。
149.75 people volunteered, took personality tests.
75个人志愿参加，做了人格测试。
150.We did interviews. Picked two dozen: the most normal, the most healthy.
我们做了面试。挑选了24名： 他们是最正常的，最健康的。
151.Randomly assigned them to be prisoner and guard.
然后随机把他们分成囚犯和警卫两组。
152.So on day one, we knew we had good apples.
所以在第一天，我们知道他们都是好苹果。
153.I’m going to put them in a bad situation.
而我将把他们放在一个坏的情境里。
154.And secondly, we know there’s no difference between the boys who are going to be guards and the boys who are going to be prisoners.
其次，我们知道 在将要扮演警卫和 扮演囚犯的男生之间没有任何区别。
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