MarcPachter_采访的艺术【中英文对照】

1.The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated to presenting great American lives, amazing people.
国家人物志致力于 展现非凡的美国生活， 非凡的美国人。
2.And that’s what it’s about.
这就是它的意义所在。
3.We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that’s it.
我们用肖像画的手法来还原这些人的生活，如此而已。
4.And so I’m not going to talk about the painted portrait today.
所以我今天要说的不是真正的肖像画。
5.I’m going to talk about a program I started there, which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.
我想谈谈一个我发起的项目， 我一生最得意的作品。
6.I started to worry about the fact that a lot of people don’t get their portraits painted anymore, and they’re amazing people, and we want to deliver them to future generations.
我为一个事实而忧虑 那就是很多人终生不为人所知， 然而他们是非常杰出的人物， 我们想把他们的故事讲给我们的后代听。
7.So, how do we do that?
那么我们该怎么做呢？
8.And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.
于是我想到了发起这个自画像式的系列访谈。
9.And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically my being a brush in the hand of amazing people who would come and I would interview.
基本上就是说 我作为被访谈者手中的画笔 请他们通过访谈为自己画像。
10.And so what I’m going to do is, not so much give you the great hits of that program, as to give you this whole notion of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,
我不会谈 这个节目的成功之处， 我想谈的是总体上 在这种情况下你怎样去面对这些人，
11.what you try to find out about them, and when people deliver and when they don’t and why.
你想在他们身上发掘些什么， 以及他们滔滔不绝或缄口不语的原因是什么。
12.Now, I had two preconditions.
我对采访设置两个前提。
13.One was that they be American.
一，受访者应该是美国人。
14.That’s just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery, it’s created to look at American lives.
这是由国家人物志的定位决定的— 这是一个探讨美国人的节目。
15.That was easy, but then I made the decision, maybe arbitrary, that they needed to be people of a certain age, which at that point, when I created this program,
这个很容易，而之后的一个决定， 也许有些武断， 就是受访者应该都到了一定的年纪， 在我立项之初，
16.seemed really old.
就决定被访群体主要是老人。
17.Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.
60岁，70岁，80岁，甚至90岁。
18.For obvious reasons, it doesn’t seem that old anymore to me.
很明显，对我来说现在他们也不算很老了。
19.And why did I do that?
那么我为什么这么做呢？
20.Well, for one thing, we’re a youth-obsessed culture.
第一，我们生活在一个推崇年轻人的文化里。
21.And I thought really what we need is an elders program to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.
但我觉得我们更需要给长者一个舞台， 让我们可以坐在台下聆听这些长者娓娓道来。
22.But the second part of it — and the the older I get, the more convinced I am that that’s true.
第二个点是——随着我的年纪加深， 我越来越相信这一点——
23.It’s amazing what people will say when they know how the story turned out.
他们大都洞悉世事发展的方向， 听他们讲述这些故事是一件很神奇的事情。
24.That’s the one advantage that older people have.
这是长者独有的智慧之一。
25.Well, they have other, little bit of advantage, but they also have some disadvantages, but the one thing they or we have is that we’ve reached the point in life
好吧，做老人家还有那么点儿好处， 当然也会有不好的地方， 但我们的共性就是 我们已经到了
26.where we know how the story turned out.
能够看透世事的人生阶段了。
27.So, we can then go back in our lives, if we’ve got an interviewer who gets that, and begin to reflect on how we got there.
所以，我们回归生活， 如果恰好有一位理解这些的访问者， 那么我们就可以为他讲述一路走来的人生历程。
28.All of those accidents that wound up creating the life narrative that we inherited.
所有这些悲悲喜喜 成就了我们今天听到的这段精彩人生。
29.So, I thought okay, now, what is it going to take to make this work?
然后我就开始想： 那么怎么才能达到这种效果呢？
30.There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.
采访有很多种，我们都知道。
31.There are the journalist interviews, which are the interrogation that is expected.
有一种是记者采访， 这更像是盘查和质问。
32.This is somewhat against resistance and caginess on the part of the interviewee.
某种程度上你必须应对来自被访者 的抵触情绪和外交辞令。
33.Then there’s the celebrity interview, where it’s more important who’s asking the question than who answers.
另一种是名人访谈， 提问者的身份往往比被访者是谁更重要。
34.That’s Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.
Barbara Walters以及其他一些人就属于这种，大家都很喜欢。
35.That’s Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important as Nixon in that process.
像Frost对Nixon的访问，Frost就显得跟Nixon 一样重要。
36.Fair enough.
就是如此。
37.But I wanted interviews that were different.
但我想要的采访跟这些不一样。
38.I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic, which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say and to be an agent of their self-revelation.
我希望能达到“通感“的境界，这个词是我后来想到的。 也就是说，要能体会到他们想要说的，? 然后代替他们揭示自我。
39.By the way, this was always done in public.
别忘了，这都是要在大庭广众面前完成的。
40.This was not an oral history program.
这不仅仅是一个谈论历史的节目。
41.This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual, and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.
300名观众坐在被访者身边， 而我则化身为一支描绘被访者肖像的画笔。
42.Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.
结果呢，我发现我其实很擅长这件事情。
43.I didn’t know it coming into it.
我开始并不知道。
44.And the only reason I really now that is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fullbright, and that was six months after he’d had a stroke.
后来意识到的唯一原因是 我对William Fullbright参议员所做的访谈。 那是在他中风以后6个月的时候。
45.And he had never appeared in public since that point.
他自打中风后还没公开露过面。
46.This was not a devastating stroke, but it did affect his speaking and so forth.
那次中风并不是特别严重， 但也影响到了讲话和其他一些行为。
47.And I thought it was worth a chance, he thought it was worth a chance, and so we got up on the stage, and we an hour conversion about his life,
我觉得他可以试着重新出来见见大家了， 他也觉得可行， 所以我们就来到舞台上， 谈了一个小时，关于他的人生，
48.and after that a woman rushed up to me, essentially did, and she said, “Where did you train as a doctor?”
结束后，一位女士跑到我面前， 确实是这样， 她对我说“你在哪里接受的医疗培训？”
49.And I said, “I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that.”
我说：“我从来没有学过，我也从没有说过我学过啊。”
50.And she said, “Well, something very weird was happening.
然后她说：“好吧，那么刚才发生的就很令人费解了。
51.When he started a sentence, particularly in the early parts of the interview, and paused, you gave him the word, the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,
当他开始说一句话， 尤其是在访问的最初阶段， 然后稍稍停顿，这时你给递给他一个词， 这个词就像桥梁一样帮助他到达句子的结尾。
52.and by the end of it, he was speaking complete sentences on his own.”
然后到了后来， 他就开始自己说完整的句子了。“
53.I didn’t know what was going on, but I was so part of the process of getting that out.
我不知道发生了什么， 但毋庸质疑是我在帮他完成那个过程。
54.So I thought, okay, fine, I’ve got empathy, or empathy, at any rate, is what’s critical to this kind of interview.
所以我就想，好吧，看来我已经知道怎么“通感”了。 或者说“通感”，本来就是 这类访谈成功的关键。
55.But then I began to think of other things.
但过后我又开始思考其他一些事情。
56.Who makes a great interview in this context?
怎样的受访者可以成就一个好的访谈？
57.It had nothing to do with their intellect, the quality of their intellect.
这与受访者的才智没有关系， 他们的智商。
58.Some of them were very brilliant, some of them were, you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals, but it was never about that.
他们中有些人非常聪明， 有些人 也就是普通人，他们也从不认为自己智慧过人， 但这些都不重要。
59.It was about their energy.
他们自身的能量才是关键。
60.It’s energy that creates extraordinary interviews and extraordinary lives.
是这些能量造就了非凡的访谈 以及非凡的人生。
61.I’m convinced of it.
我对这点确信无疑。
62.And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.
而且这种能量也不是那种年轻人的能量，
63.These were people through their 90s.
受访者有些都已经90多岁了。
64.In fact, the first person I interviewed was George Abbott, who was 97, and Abbott was filled with the life force — I guess that’s the way I think about it — filled with it.
实际上，我所采访的第一个人 是George Abbott, 他当时97岁。 然而Abbott充满了生命力— 我就是这样想的——充满能量。
65.And so he filled the room, and we had an extraordinary conversation.
然后他来到这里， 就有了我们之间不同寻常的对话。
66.He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do because he was famous for being silent, for never ever saying anything
他曾被认为是最难搞定的受访者， 因为他以沉默著称， 什么都不说，
67.except maybe a word or two.
即便说也就一两个词而已。
68.And, in fact, he did wind up opening up — by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.
不过，实际上，他那次还的确是说了不少。 对了，他的能量还体现在其他一些方面。
69.He subsequently got married again at 102, so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.
他后来在102岁的时候又结婚了。 所以你就知道了，他其实是有不少生命力的。
70.But after the interview, I got a call, very gruff voice, from a woman, I didn’t know who she was, and she said, “Did you get George Abbott to talk?”
但那次访谈之后，我接到了一个电话， 很生硬的声音，是位女士。 我不知道她是谁。 她说：“你让George Abbott开口说话了？“
71.And I said, “Yeah. Apparently I did.”
我说：“是啊，看起来是这样。”
72.And she said, “I’m his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton, and I could never do it.”
然后她说：“我是他以前的女友，Maureen Stapleton， 我都无法让他开口。“
73.And then she made me go up with the tape of it and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.
然后她又让我把那次的录像带翻出来 证明给她看George Abbott的确是说话了。
74.So, you know, you want energy, you want the life force, but you really want them also to think that they have a story worth sharing.
所以，你看，你需要那种能量， 需要生命的能量， 但你同时也的确需要让他们觉得 他们的故事是值得分享的。
75.The worst interviews that you can ever have are with people who are modest.
最糟糕的采访 就是被访者是个谦虚的人。
76.Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who’s modest because all of these people have been assembled to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,
千万别去采访一个谦虚的人， 因为他们本来 是要说点东西给别人听的，但他们却坐在那里说，
77.”Aw, shucks, it was an accident.”
“唉算了吧，那只是个偶然事件而已。“
78.There’s nothing that ever happens that justifies people taking good hours of the day to be with them.
似乎从来没有什么能 让他们为自己做过的事情引以为豪。
79.The worst interview I ever did: WIlliam L. Shirer.
我做过的最糟糕的采访是William L. Shirer.
80.The journalist who did “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.”
他就是“第三德国的起落”的作者。
81.This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months, and every time I’d ask him about it, he’d say, “Oh, I just happened to be there.
这个人在6个月里先后会见了希特勒和甘地。 关于这个每次我问到他的时候，他都会说，“噢，我只是碰巧在那里而已。
82.Didn’t matter.” Whatever.
没什么大不了的。“此类的话。
83.Awful.
糟糕透了。
84.I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.
我再也不会答应去采访一个谦虚的人了。
85.They have to think that they did something and that they want to share it with you.
这些人必须先明白他们确实做过些什么， 然后他们也愿意跟你分享这些。
86.But it comes down, in the end, to how do you get through all the barriers we have.
但归根到底 是需要你去克服所有那些障碍。
87.All of us are public and private beings, and if all you’re going to get from the interviewee is their public self, there’s no point in it.
我们每个人都有公众形象和个人形象， 如果你通过采访所能获得的只是被访者的公众形象， 那是无济于事的。
88.It’s pre-programmed. It’s infomercial, and we all have infomercials about our lives.
公众形象是我们事先安排好的，是用来作秀的， 每个人都有可以拿来秀的一面。
89.We know the great lines, we know the great moments, we know what we’re not going to share, and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.
我们都知道那些冠冕堂皇的话，知道那些让我们感到荣耀的时刻， 也知道什么事情是不能分享的， 关键是我们说的话不能让别人感到难堪。
90.This wasn’t — and some of you will remember Mike Wallace’s old interviews — tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.
这并不难——也许你们有人记得 Mike Wallace以前的采访—— 采访不难，也没什么侵略性。这样的采访没什么问题。
91.I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say, to break out of their own cocoon of the public self, and the more public they had been,
但我想做的是让他们说出他们想说的话， 让他们从公众形象的束缚中挣脱出来。 他们作为公众人物的时间越长，
92.the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.
这种束缚就越发的根深蒂固。
93.And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment that happened in this interview series.
让我来告诉你们这个采访系列中 最坏的和最好的时刻吧。
94.It all has to do with that shell that most of us have, and particularly certain people.
这都跟罩在我们身上的这个壳儿有关系， 对一些人来说尤为如此。
95.There’s an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.
Clare Boothe Luce是位杰出的女士。
96.It’ll be your generational determinant as to whether her name means much to you.
是否知道她将是你是否属于特定年代 的一个标志。
97.She did so much. She was a playwright.
她做了很多的事情。她是一个剧作家。
98.She did an extraordinary play called “The Women.”
写了一部出色的剧本叫做“女人们”。
99.She was a congresswoman when there weren’t very many congresswomen.
她也是一位国会议员， 那个年代女议员屈指可数。
100.She was editor of Vanity Fair, one of the great phenomenal women of her day.
她还是《名利场》的编辑， 总之，一个在那个年代非常杰出的女性。
101.And, incidentally, I call her the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.
不经意间我开始叫她 右翼Eleanor Roosevlt。
102.She was sort of adored on the Right the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.
她被右翼人士所爱戴， 正像是Eleanor Roosevelt被左翼爱戴一样。
103.And, in fact, when we did the interview, I did the living self-portrait with her, there were three former directors of the CIA basically sitting at her feet,
事实上，在我们做访谈的时候， 我对她做现场自画像， 观众中有三名前CIA的主管， 坐在下面，
104.just enjoying her presence.
很享受能跟她相距咫尺的感觉。
105.And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake, because I always have preliminary talks with these people for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
我当时认为这次应该不费吹灰之力， 因为我总会在开始采访之前跟被访者聊一会儿， 大概10到15分钟的样子。
106.We never talk before that because if you talk before, you don’t get it on the stage.
在那之前我们不进行交流，因为如果聊了， 真正采访的时候就出不来了。
107.So she and I had a delightful conversation.
后来我们的谈话非常令人愉悦，
108.We were on the stage and then — by the way, spectacular.
我们坐在台上，然后—— 那真的棒极了。
109.It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce’s look.
Clare Boothe Luce打扮的美极了。
110.She was in a great evening gown.
她穿着漂亮的晚礼服，
111.She was 80, almost that day of the interview, and there she was and there I was, and I just proceeded into the questions.
采访当天她马上就要80岁了。 她和我坐在那里， 我开始提问，?
112.And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.
然后她就开始很不配合。真是难以置信。
113.Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss, and I was basically up there — any of you in the moderate-to-full-entertainment world
我问的任何问题都被她回避掉， 我基本上就被晾在那里——你们中任何一个 了解娱乐节目的人都知道
114.know what it is to die onstage.
什么是冷场。
115.And I was dying.  She was absolutely not giving me a thing.
我就被冷在那里了。她什么都不肯说。
116.And I began to wonder what was going on, and you think while you talk, and basically, I thought, I got it.
然后我开始思考到底发生了什么。 一边说一边思考。 然后我真的想明白了。
117.When we were alone, I was her audience.
当我们单独交谈的时候，我是她的听众。
118.Now I’m her competitor for the audience.
但在台上我变成了她争取台下听众的竞争对手。
119.That’s the problem here, and she’s fighting me for that, and so then I asked her a question — I didn’t know how I was going to get out of it —
这就是问题所在，她在跟我竞争。 所以当我问她一个问题， 我不知道将得到什么样的回答。
120.I asked her a question about her days as a playwright, and again, characteristically, instead of saying, “Oh yes, I was a playwright, and blah blah blah,”
我问她关于剧作家的生活， 这就是她的典型回答： 她不是说：“嗯，我曾经是一名剧作家，如此这般，”
121.she said, “oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.
而是说：“噢，剧作家啊。人人都知道我曾是个剧作家啊。
122.Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress.”
很多人以为我还当过演员，其实我从来没有当过演员。“
123.But I hadn’t asked that, and then she went off on a tear, and she said, “Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.
但我并没有问关于演员的事情，然后她就开始掉眼泪， 继续说道：“嗯，其实，我有段时间的确是一名演员。